Inclusive cycling

In this episode, I speak to Lyndsey Hollands, British Cycling's Strategic Lead ‑ Disability and Inclusion, about British Cycling's efforts to make cycling inclusive for disabled people. 

We discuss the challenges and current environment for disabled people to cycle in Britain. We turn to British Cycling's efforts to increase the number of disabled people cycling, principally by focusing on their flagship programme, Limitless. We consider the background to the programme, it's success to date, the challenges, and the future of inclusive cycling. 

Listen to this episode to understand how a National Governing Body is attempting to make their sport more inclusive for disabled people.  

Thanks for listening to the Disability Sport Info show! 

Transcript

00:00:29 Dr Chris Brown

Today I am joined by Lindsey Hollands, who works at British Cycling. Lindsey, thank you for joining me today. Could you just tell me a little bit more about your role at British Cycling, please?

00:00:40 Lyndsey Hollands

Yeah, hi Chris. It's great to chat to you today. My role at British Cycling, I am strategic lead for disability and inclusion. Essentially, it's my job to make our sport as disability inclusive as we possibly can and increase the number of disabled people accessing cycling.

00:00:58 Dr Chris Brown

Pretty easy strap line, but probably quite difficult to achieve. So, what kind of things do you do on a day-to-day basis?

00:01:04 Lyndsey Hollands

We've got sort of a number of different strategies in order to do that. I work sort of across the business. I'm part of a team of strategic leads actually, which is a bit of a recent shift for British Cycling. So there's four of us. I'm the strategic lead for disability inclusion. I have a colleague, strategic lead for children and young people, my other colleagues strategic lead for physical activity health, and we also have a women and girls strategic lead.

So, we work sort of across the business to really support all of our colleagues to ensure that each of our subject areas are sort of embedded and included in all areas. And that's quite a new shift, actually, which is really, really quite exciting. And we're probably at the start of that journey. But then we each kind of have our own individual products and programmes.

And as an NGB, we are moving towards a sort of the programme and products system, I guess, or set up to really try and tackle those inequalities. So obviously I'm doing that for disabled people.

00:02:05 Dr Chris Brown

And so you said you're a disability and inclusion lead. So, does inclusion also capture other protected characteristics or is it just disability? Because I'm curious about how much of your role is dedicated specifically to disability.

00:02:17 Lyndsey Hollands

Yeah, it's a really great question. And it for me, it is, yeah, disabilities. So, your physical disabilities, visual impairments, neurodivergence, sensory impairments, anything like life limiting health conditions, all of that, but very specific to disabled people and those other sort of inclusive elements are picked up with other colleagues and our wider D&I strategy.

00:02:39 Dr Chris Brown

Okay, thank you.

How easy do you find it to be able to battle for your particular strategic focus compared to your other colleagues? Of course, you're going to be working together, but how do you find British Cycling's approach to disability has changed over the years? And what's it like now?

00:02:54 Lyndsey Hollands

I'm in a really privileged position because I think it's in a good place.

I think historically, I mean, I imagine the organisation would admit we probably haven't done enough for disabled people in our sport. And because of sort of recent things that I'm sure we'll be chatting about soon, it's, you know, we are in an amazing position to make a difference to disabled people. But like I said, it's quite a new, I guess, focus, these sort of strategic leads, but I think the setup of that sort of the structure within the organisation is we're in a really good place to start to influence and really embed inclusion into the business of cycling.

00:03:33 Dr Chris Brown

Okay, and in terms of the participation landscape for cyclists in the UK or Britain, what's it like for the people who want to be cycling at a grassroots level? 

What are the main challenges that some people might face? Are you able to expand on that a little bit, please?

00:03:49 Lyndsey Hollands

Yeah, absolutely.

I think probably it's quite confusing for disabled people just because there's potentially so many routes to access cycling, but that also makes it quite exciting.

For me, I just think there needs to be as many opportunities as possible for a disabled person to take part in the type of cycling that they want to do. And that could be recreational cycling. It could be integrated into a club and working to, you know, to get into competitive cycling. It could be commuting to work, it could be cycling, cycle touring, I don't know, like it could be anything.

And I think a big part of my role, especially in our sort of our new sort of strategic focus, is to sort of work with all those partners that are involved. I'm very aware that British Cycling is not the only organisation doing disability cycling. There are so many others. And I think it's really important that we are working together to make sure that there is this kind of menu of options.

So, if you want to just go regularly and have some very disability specific experiences, then amazing. There's definitely that opportunity out there for you.

If you want to go and be integrated into a club environment and cycle weekly on the weekly club run, then that opportunity is out there as well. So yeah, it's my job to make sure that there's this, I think, connected landscape for sure.

But I do agree, it's very, very confusing.

00:05:17 Dr Chris Brown

And in terms of the national picture, how does cycling differ depending on where you are based in the UK or Britain?

00:05:26 Lyndsey Hollands

I would like to think that it's certainly improving.

So, when I first started in the role, so I've been in British cycling 3 years now, I would go to a lot of the sort of multi-sports events hosted by the BPA and talk to people about getting involved in cycling. And I was a little bit embarrassed when people would come to me and say, I live in Crawley, where can I take part? Or I live here. And I didn't have an answer, I didn't have the knowledge, or I didn't have a suitable club that I was confident to say, actually go along to this club, they're going to be able to meet your needs.

But through our Limitless programme, we've been working to create this network of inclusive clubs, disability inclusive clubs across the country. And I feel that we're in a much better place now to say that absolutely we've got this network. There are definitely gaps, there's definitely places that we need to improve. But just sort of to explain where we're at, we've got over 350 limitless champion clubs. They are affiliated cycling clubs that have committed to inclusion. So, our champion clubs are doing exactly that. They're championing disability inclusion. And we currently have a network of 37 limitless focus clubs.

And Focus Clubs are clubs that are driving disability inclusion on the ground and they're providing additional and specific opportunities for disabled people to access cycling. We've got a target to get to 50 in the next sort of year and a half, I think, is sort of our initial target. And we're doing really great to get there.

And I think the great thing as well about Limitless is we cover Scotland and Wales. So, we work with our counterparts, Scottish cycling and Welsh cycling. And it's amazing that we will get to that coverage, which is far more exciting.

00:07:23 Dr Chris Brown

Okay, and I will cover Limitless soon.

Of course, I know you're very proud of that programme and it's a really good programme to focus on.

What you just said there was quite interesting and I wonder if you could provide a little bit more context. It might be a bit of an unfair question, so obviously just tell me if it's an unfair question.

So, you've been here three years, so you joined 2022. So, when you were saying that anecdote that if someone's from Crawley, for example, you wouldn't necessarily know where to direct them. 

So, how come in 2022, British Cycling didn't necessarily have the insight or didn't have the bandwidth to be able to support people to be as active in cycling as maybe people might imagine with success at the Paralympics and also a well-known sports, wealthy National Governing Body.

So, what kind of your thoughts on that particular aspect? Why it's taken so long for it to kind of get this position it is now.

00:08:16 Lyndsey Hollands

What we used to have were disability hubs and we had 10 disability hubs based around England. So, there was one in each of British Cycling's governing regions, governed regions, sorry. And those hubs, there wasn't a sort of obvious programme of what they were meant to deliver.

Some clubs offered really progressive coaching and were linked to local club networks. Some clubs, sorry, some hubs were quite sporadic. We of course had the pandemic as well. And then after COVID, some hubs bounced back like a lot of sport, some things came back raring to go and then others just didn't really, didn't really take off again. And I think we knew that we needed to do something better.

Like your hub was great if you lived really locally to it, but if you were in a region and you know, if you're in the southwest where I live and your hub was in Bath, but you lived in Penzance, that's a terrible offer. And British Cycle knew that and knew that we needed to do something about it.

In 2021, we did a big piece of research with a number of different partners as well. So, I know Wheels for All were included, Wheels for Wellbeing, Activity Alliance, I think Access Sport were included as well. And I think the research essentially told us what we already knew, that our hub programme wasn't fit for purpose.

And actually, people's expectations in cycling were that they didn't want necessarily the disability version of cycling over here being separate and coming once a month and then maybe coming back a month later and not coming back because it's raining. And then, you know, they actually wanted to be integrated into a club environment.

So, we took that research and said, okay, well, what do we do? And that was essentially our first iteration of our Limitless programme. It was co-created with disabled people. It was created with people that were involved in the clubs, in the hubs at the time. And yeah, it was a model for disability inclusion. 

The idea was that we would support our network of affiliated clubs to have the confidence to create those inclusive, supportive and welcoming environments. And that was the very ethos of it, inclusive and supportive welcoming environments for disabled people to take part.

00:10:32 Dr Chris Brown

Okay, and just one more question before we get to Limitless, because I know you're absolutely desperate to talk about Limitless.

When looking at the kind of national picture you already mentioned before, but it's quite, it must be quite a challenge when you're thinking about cycling in a city and maybe like cycle lanes and obviously thinking about specific impairments where it might be a challenge or about safety, etc. And then rural environments.

So how do you try to support both quite competing requirements, where you've got the rural aspect and you've got the kind of city urban aspect. How do you try to challenge those two areas?

00:11:06 Lyndsey Hollands

Yeah, I think that is where our network of inclusive clubs really come into their own, because if we can give people the confidence to cycle. So, if we can teach people, we can make sure people have access to try different types of non-standard cycles and find something that's suitable and works for them.

And through the networks that we have of amazing clubs, amazing coaches, giving people the opportunity to learn skills, develop their confidence, and then, connect with other people as well, we would really hope that can then transition into those other places.

So, if they've learned to ride on a certain bike and then they've managed to go out and purchase, have the confidence to purchase a bike and then go and cycle, hopefully that all those skills that you've learned in a safe environment can transition into the road, into the forest, wherever it might be. And that's a big part of my role sort of moving forward as well.

We've really focused on our clubs and groups, which is the right thing to do because we're a National Governing Body, right? We're a membership organisation of thousands of affiliated clubs and groups. So, if we've got those inclusive environments, we can then go to other places because, for me as well, it's really important.

Like at British Cycling, we're really good at talking to people who like cycling about cycling. But I think where we need to improve is talking to people who don't yet know they like cycling, especially if you have a disability. And if your disability impacts your legs or your balance, you're going to take one look at a bike, the bike that you see, all the time, a standard two-wheel solo bike, and you're going to think, well, that's not for me. My legs don't move. I can't balance. There's absolutely no way I can do that.

And that's where your sort of point of safety comes in.

So, I think we need to, and we will be, working with other partners and other organisations to actually take cycling to where people might want to cycle. Because if you've not even thought about getting on a bike, you're not going to look on the British Cycling website and you're certainly not going to find our disability offer.

So, we need to be working with disabled people's organisations, with places and with partners where people might want to ride a bike, like Forestry England, for example, and take our specific disability inclusive programmes out into those places to encourage people back into our pathway that way.

00:13:37 Dr Chris Brown

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. You can't really have a one-size-fits-all approach, but so diverse in terms of how it can be practiced and participated in that you have to have those specific and bespoke approaches.

00:13:49 Lyndsey Hollands

Yeah, absolutely.

And I guess we're kind of re-engineering it really. So, we do want people in our clubs and in our competition pathways, absolutely.

But yeah, I think we need to think different about how we're going to get people to them in the 1st place.

00:14:02 Dr Chris Brown

Okay, so let's talk about Limitless. So, you're the lead of a successful participation programme called Limitless. So, you've kind of already touched upon aspects of it already, but would you be able to just explain what the programme is about and what you're trying to achieve with it?

00:14:15 Lyndsey Hollands

Like I said, it started life very much as that inclusive club framework with the view to create a network of clubs and groups creating an inclusive, supportive, welcoming environment.

So that is the sort of theme that underlines the whole ethos of Limitless, creating inclusive, welcoming environments.

I was actually briefed about the Limitless programme on my second day at British Cycling. And I remember thinking like, oh God, like, what if this, like, what if this isn't a good programme? But I was genuinely really, really excited about it. So, the team that had worked on it previously, it was really, really good.

And then when I asked the questions about the numbers of clubs, I was given really conservative figures. And I remember thinking like, it doesn't sound like enough clubs and groups. Like we've got, I think, over 2,000 affiliated clubs. And I think initially we wanted to get to 50 champion clubs.

But at that time, where we were as a National Governing Body, that was what we had funding for, and that was sort of how it was placed.

Then sort of fast forward a couple of months with British Cycling, as a National Governing Body, we went into partnership with Shell UK, a wider partnership across a number of different pillars across the business. And Shell came to us and said they wanted to do a programme on social impact. So, we pitched to them the Limitless programme. And they came back and were positive and they said, okay, we need to amplify it. And then that's when I got really excited because I was like, well, this is great.

Instead of the 50 limitless clubs that we spoke about, the limitless champion clubs, we'll go for 500 and we'll go across Scotland and we'll go across Wales and we'll fund 50 focus clubs. And yeah, that's what we did.

So we're 2 1/2 years in now. Like I mentioned earlier, we've got over 350 limitless champion clubs. They're the ones championing inclusion. 

And then our limitless focus clubs, 37 at the moment, providing additional and specific opportunities. And the Limitless programme has funded those clubs to break barriers and inspire change. And I think that's sort of another key part of it. We really want to remove the barriers that disabled people face.

And we know that there's really stubborn challenges, as you touched upon earlier. And that's the great thing about having a commercial partnership, because unlike sort of typical Sport England programmes or, it isn't direct, it isn't a real, I guess, directive that you have to do a certain thing. There definitely isn't a one-size-fits-all.

Clubs are doing amazing things and different things for different people and different impairment groups in different areas. So, you know, we'll have a tandem club, tandem trekkers up in the northeast and we'll have a children's youth club down in Devon.

So, everyone is doing entirely different things, but to cater for the needs of their community. And that's the amazing thing that Limitless can do.

00:17:21 Dr Chris Brown

Okay, so just try and get the nuts and bolts of the programme, because I'd love to learn a little bit more. So, from my understanding, which obviously, correct me if I'm wrong, you are the lead. So, you've got these kind of champion clubs or hubs of kind of Limitless who are kind of there to promote and champion inclusion.

Do you provide funding to those particular clubs and then kind of say to them that you know your local area, you know your local population, you use this funding however you see fit, get on with it.

Or do you have like a certain kind of prescribed guidelines that you say they need to work within but then they still get a bit of autonomy.

I don't know if you're able to kind of just flesh out a little bit more detail about how Limitless actually works in practice.

00:18:03 Lyndsey Hollands

Yeah, absolutely, Chris.

It's actually a bit of both. So, our Limitless Focus Clubs are the clubs that we support with funding. And we do say exactly that. What are the challenges you're experiencing? What are the barriers you want to remove? And what would you need funding for? What is going to make an impact at your club in your community?

And the biggest one is always access to equipment. It's a fleet of, it's a fleet of bikes. They would like newer and non-standard cycles.

They would like a wider range of, they might, they might have one hand cycle and one recumbent trike, but that one, if you can help one person with a spinal injury or one person who might have had a stroke with, those two bikes. 

So we always ask the clubs what is their need and that will be very different and that's absolutely fine.

It might be that the club want to put on additional sessions and need to use funding to pay for a facility or would like extra volunteers.

So yeah, it is very much down to the needs of each individual club.

However, we do now have, and because we're 2 1/2 years in to Limitless, we do have a set of kind of guidelines and a few different kind of formats for Limitless.

So, we have a Limitless Festival, and we'd say to a club, maybe once a year, can you put on a Limitless Festival, which is, sort of anyone, every disability, any age, come and try, pick any bike, give it a go. And it's a way to engage and inspire disabled people.

So that's sort of our engagement element of Limitless, the Limitless Festival.

We then have Limitless Race Days. And Limitless Race Days are an entry level competition for disabled people. So, there's again, different formats that clubs can sort of pick and choose and can do what works and what is right for the members of their clubs and the members of their community.

So Limitless Race Days is sort of another model, another element of the Limitless programme.

There's then Limitless Led Rides, which is sort of exactly that. It's a lead ride, but we support and encourage people who are on an adaptive cycle, non-standard cycle to attend.

And we've developed a bolt on to our British Cycling Ride Leadership course to help ride leaders lead rides of people who might be on a non-standard cycle. Obviously, there's lots of different things you have to consider. So yeah, limitless lead ride is that.

And the great thing about that is that is then taking people, you know, they might go to a club and go to the same circuit or the same athletics track and cycle around, but having limitless lead rides means that people can go and experience a different area, maybe get out into the countryside and have that confidence because they're doing it with other disabled people and ride leaders who are trained to lead that. So limitless led rides is another element.

We then have a newer element of limitless, which is limitless clusters. And that mimics the British cycling cluster framework that we have in our Olympic pathway. So, our limitless clusters are for para-eligible impairments.

And this is where it gets a little bit confusing because for limitless for me, anyone, any disability, any age, wants to get on a bike, like I want as many disabled people accessing our sport as possible.

But, of course, we are the National Governing Body of the sport. We do have a responsibility to win medals at a Paralympic Games. So limitless cluster is kind of that entry route into our talent pathway.

And we are beginning to see more clubs take on that element of limitless as well. So, for para eligible impairments, so just to recap for cycling, that is a physical disabilities and visual impairments. And yeah, that's sort of another piece of the limitless puzzle really.

So we can go to clubs and say, what are your challenges? What are your barriers? How can we help you?

A lot of clubs will be like, we don't know. We just, we want more disabled people. That's why we've come to you.

And that's when we can say, well, this is our menu of options. These are the things that you can offer. Limitless sessions, limitless festivals, limitless clusters, limitless race days.

And I think that's when, like, where I want to get to is that there's all these amazing opportunities to meet the needs of disabled riders.

00:22:35 Dr Chris Brown

Really interesting.

Thank you for that. I really appreciate all the detail you've provided.

I'm just curious now. So, you said like Limitless clusters, so they can entry level into the performance kind of pathway for Paralympic qualification eligibility is growing in popularity?

Are you concerned that might potentially take over some of the focus of clubs to the detriment of other disabled people in terms of their impairments that aren't fitting that classification requirement? Is that a concern for you?

00:23:04 Lyndsey Hollands

No, it's not something that's crossed my mind, Chris.

I think it's important that we have that menu of options and there will be clubs that will focus on that and that's absolutely fine. But that happens for non-disabled people as well. There are definitely clubs that are more geared towards competitive sport than recreational clubs and I think that's absolutely fine. So no, it's not something that I have been concerned.

Do you think I need to be concerned?

00:23:40 Dr Chris Brown

No, well, I mean, obviously, I don't know as much as you about cycling, but I suppose what I would be, it depends how you offer the funding, I suppose.

If there's more, I don't know how you do the incentives in terms of metrics for measuring success with the programme, whether you're more interested in getting X, Y, and Z, the type of impairments through or getting seen people through the pathways, like you say, you are as an NGB responsible for getting medals.

Yeah, I just, there's always that worry, I suppose, if you have a pan-disability programme, it's hard obviously to cater for every single impairment group.

And then if you're offering another option, which is really good because I think diversity of choice is important, not to kind of therefore have too much focus on a specific pathway to the detriment of those with more kind of complex requirements.

00:24:31 Lyndsey Hollands

Yes.

00:24:32 Dr Chris Brown

Yeah, So I suppose it's just having that kind of diversity and balance, I suppose.

But, you know, I didn't mean to scare you. I was just curious what your thought process was, because, yeah, I agree with you. There needs to be a menu. I just, yes, whether people take up that option to the detriment of others, I suppose.

00:24:50 Lyndsey Hollands

Yeah, I think as well it's just providing that education.

There's, I think sometimes people, and it's definitely a challenge I've come across in managing the Limitless programme, is people think disability inclusive cycling is cycling on a big clunky old-looking adaptive cycle around the circle, or they think disability-inclusive cycling is just paracycling.

It's just Dame Sarah Story and Jodi Cundy flying round as fast as they can.

And they don't necessarily know that there's this in between and it can be other things.

So, I think that's where Limitless is really great because although it's hard to be everything to everyone, because we've got such a range of clubs offering lots of different things, I think it can be. And I think what we really need to do and probably need to work harder about doing is educating those clubs to say, actually, do you know what, if you have somebody with this type of impairment and this type of disability and they're showing all the signs of loving cycling, being super enthused and super excited and want to be really great and want to develop, then this is the route for them to do that.

And as a coach, this is the route that you would take down.

So I work closely with my colleagues in the para talent team to make sure that we're supporting our Limitless clubs and wider clubs to understand what our para-talent pathway is. But I do think Limitless can be that entry route. I want Limitless to be synonymous for disability inclusive cycling.

I want disabled people and parents of children with a disability to be able to confidently go to a Limitless club or a Limitless led ride or a facility that offers Limitless and have a really positive cycling experience and then be connected into British cycling, whatever that might look like, which could be competitive racing.

It could be having the confidence to cycle as a family and, just take part in cycling when you're at Center Parcs, so, but because you, that you've learned that skill through the Limitless programme.

00:27:12 Dr Chris Brown

Yeah, I think it's having that insight to understand that you've got lots of different options. And so if someone is particularly favouring a certain route, then that's fine.

You've got the option to give that capability to them rather than like, you know, forcing someone down a set road.

Yeah, it's actually just saying, actually, there's lots of different options and here's how we can help you, whatever you want to do, as long as you're enjoying it and you want to, you know, participate, et cetera, et cetera.

How does a club become a focus club? What kind of characteristics do they need? What do they need to demonstrate to you guys so they can be trusted to use that funding wisely?

00:27:47 Lyndsey Hollands

So, we will ask a series of questions based around their intention and ambitions. And then they will just sort of apply and kind of present to British Cycling what they want to do.

And actually, Chris, this year, so this is the third year of our Limitless programme, we've made some really quite big changes of how Limitless has been structured through the organisation. So initially it was sort of a separate programme that clubs applied to and we checked them off and we ticked them off and we went through the sort of the accessibility inclusion kitemark guidelines and said, yep, you're a Limitless champion club.

If clubs were applying for funding, we'd meet with them, we'd understand their funding needs and then would make a decision and how much funding they would have. But what we did at the back end of last year was we embedded Limitless Champion Club status into our club affiliation process as standard.

So each year as a club reaffiliates to British Cycling, they can select that point of affiliation to be part of that Limitless network, which is actually huge for us as a sport because it really shows that we are working to embed inclusion into the business of cycling.

So, we did that with the Champion Club status initially and then this year we'll be doing the same with Focus Clubs. So as a club affiliate, we'll be able to say, look, this is our Focus Club sort of offer. These are the things, those things I talked about earlier, you know, you could host a festival, you could host sessions, you could host led rides. Do you want to be a part of it? Or tell us what your challenges and barriers are. Tell us the change that you want to make. Tell us the impact that you think funding will make for you. And then we'll make a decision that way.

So, I've built relationships up with all of our limitless focus clubs. They check in usually every quarter about what they're doing, how it's going, how they're spending their money.

What's amazing is our clubs are so forthcoming and telling me amazing stories and what they're doing. And, so it's really incredible to see actually the difference.

And it's all down to the clubs, they're the ones out there that are making the change. I'm just in that really privileged position that I can help them to do that. But they're the ones, you know, doing the incredible work on the ground.

00:30:22 Dr Chris Brown

And how does British Cycling measure success of Limitless?

Because I suppose some of the critiques that might be levelled at programmes from National Governing Bodies might be like, it's a tick box culture, like you kind of measure people coming in or like they've engaged with the session, but they're not necessarily capturing the longevity of that behaviour change.

So, I wonder how you would respond to that critique and also what the success metrics are for British Cycling?

00:30:46 Lyndsey Hollands

It is a really interesting one, isn't it?

Because we do, we do that sort of qualitative data measure. I'm probably like my clubs or probably my clubs, the clubs would say I'm probably pestering them. We measure, we check in every quarter. They're brilliant. They send in data.

So, our last data count, we'd reached 5,551 riders. Our target was 5,000 in the first in the first four years. So, it's amazing that we're ahead of that.

But I've been saying it so much since we announced that statistic. Like, I don't want to meet the target but miss the point. Like, we might have engaged all these people, but you're absolutely right. Like, what does that actually mean?

Like, can all these people go and, exactly how you said, confidently cycle to work? Or, you know, have they got the mechanisms to actually own their own non-standard cycle?

Because we still know that purchasing an adaptive bike that suits your needs isn't the easiest thing in the world to do.

So I think where we really start to see is the stories and the lived experience that's coming through from our clubs and from our individuals. And we recently launched a new Limitless campaign video. It's called Break Barriers Inspire Change. We filmed at four different limitless clubs and limitless venues. So, we filmed down with the Cornwall Bicycle Project, obviously in Cornwall, filmed with Limited Edition, which is a club in South London, filmed Herne Hill Velodrome. They're one of our Limitless cluster venues, actually.

And then we filmed Limitless at Cycle Park in Kent.

And we just collected such an amazing array of life-changing stories.

And it sounds, to say, life-changing. I'm so inspired by the video every time I watch it. And I think that's the thing that's important. We have some amazing sound bites from it. Like, one lady, Casey, who's actually one of our Limitless ambassadors, she says that, you know, she's found a tribe of people. And I just think, well, that's amazing that people are getting this connection through the Limitless programme.

One of the gents in it, Jazz, he says, oh, well, I cycle places because I can't walk there. And you're like, oh, yeah, that's really obvious when people say it like that. You're like, okay, yeah, this is making a difference.

So, for me, it's just making sure that people can see that that's what cycling can do for somebody. And these are the many benefits that cycling can have.

00:33:39 Dr Chris Brown

Okay, yeah, that's really good to hear.

And yeah, those powerful stories, obviously, are an indication, I suppose, as part of the point of the project and the programme.

And I'm just also interested in the partnership with Shell.

So, you've got them as a kind of commercial provider or support in terms of the programme. How does that change your approach in terms of this programme compared to if you're classically funded through Sport England route?

So, I'm just kind of thinking about the kind of the timelines that are involved, how they may be different and how much flexibility you might be able to have to prove that behaviour change perspective.

00:34:14 Lyndsey Hollands

It's brilliant. And it's an amazing partnership.

And what's great is, it's obviously Limitless is our programme. We have full autonomy over it.

But Shell being Shell, there's so many amazing things that we can access and can really help to increase that visibility through the wider partnership that we have. So that's an amazing benefit.

It also means we can be completely flexible and we can react really quickly.

So, the sort of plan we had in January year one of Limitless is very different to the plan that we have now. So, we can take all the learnings as we go and evolve, So I think Shell just want us to make it as best as it can be.

So, it's actually really exciting that we can sort of react quickly and move to the changing landscape of disability inclusive cycling and sport in general, really, which I think is a bit different to other funded programmes that might be for a short period of time over the summer or something. And it's very, very prescriptive in what you have to do and what you have to achieve.

Whereas we have our set targets, but actually, if we've got a really good reason why we want to do something different and we've taken what we've learned along the way, we're in a really amazing position that we can shape that and focus on something different, a different element of Limitless.

So it's grown arms and legs from where we started. We started really focusing on that, the club framework. And like I said, we've got those amazing clubs. We've, you know, we've got over 5,000 riders.

What I'm really keen to do now is focus on places and partnerships. So sort of that's the direction we'll be taking it in the next couple of years.

00:36:01 Dr Chris Brown

In terms of your partnership with Shell, there's opened up so many opportunities for you with this Limitless programme.

Has there been any backlash in the community with Shell as, you know, associated with maybe fossil fuels and potentially the critique that maybe it's greenwashing or anything like that?

I don't know what your kind of thoughts are there. Also with Sport England's drive towards sustainability and that being linked to funding, how are they comfortable with Shell being involved in the programme?

Of course, Shell are trying to do some good work here, but yeah, just kind of interested in your thoughts there and the feedback.

00:36:33 Lyndsey Hollands

I think initially with the wider British Cycling Partnership, yes, there definitely was.

However, I think the numbers speak for themselves. And every year when we do an impact report, we do ask the questions. So, we send a survey out to our riders, out to our clubs, it gets distributed out to riders. And we ask for disabled riders, what their thoughts are, that the programme is directly funded by Shell. And no one has had any challenge. Everyone has said, well, we know the sport needs to be funded. We know adaptive cycles are expensive, you know, and we want more of it. So, I think in that respect is We are making such a difference and we need funding to make that difference.

We've sort of gone past the people that were upset about it and they will always be upset about it and that's their choice and their values and their beliefs. But we are making a difference to disabled people's lives, and we are making a visible difference to disability inclusive cycling.

So, I think we just need to keep doing what we're doing really well and hopefully the success of the programme and the success of those lives of disabled people that we're changing, then that will speak for itself.

00:37:50 Dr Chris Brown

Okay, yeah, thank you.

And we kind of talked about some of the learnings already, but I just wondered if you could just critically reflect on the programme and think about where maybe there could be further improvement.

So, you talked about places and partnerships being one area that you're thinking about, but what has worked really well, what has maybe not worked so well, and where do you see it going in the next few years?

00:38:12 Lyndsey Hollands

Where I want to get to is that Limitless becomes business as usual within British Cycling. And there's certainly ways we've done that through clubs. We've still got work to do with events.

I mentioned the Limitless race days model earlier and sort of disability inclusive events. I think there's still a big piece of work to do there.

And as an organisation within British Cycling, we're going through a big programme of modernising as a sport and that will include disability and para events as well.

So, I am confident that will come.

And I think the learnings that we've had with our race day formats in areas where they've worked really well or wherever they haven't, that will help shape. So, it might not have worked as well yet, but I'm a big believer in actually that what we have learned will help shape the success of the future. So, one of the mechanisms that we have to deliver Limitless on the ground are Limitless ambassadors.

So, I have a small team of amazing people out there, but I think how we've done that hasn't been the best that we could have done. So, they're ambassadors that are on sort of ad hoc contract.

And I think to make more of an impact, I think having a stronger staffing structure of disability inclusion, cycling officers, managers, whatever, with embedded into the business could be an amazing way forward. And you look at some of the other National Governing Bodies who have that team. So, I think I would like to see that evolve in the future and working in partnership to do that, I think will be really, really important.

We've got some great partnerships with National Disability Sport Organisations, and I would love to see those evolve in the future because I think I mentioned earlier about how as a sport we need to go where disabled people are and national groups for organisations and disabled people's organisations have access to those disabled people.

So I think we could be cleverer, but anything, they're often quite small charities with quite restricted funding as well. And I think that's possibly where people like Sport England play a bit of a role and responsibility to potentially shape how they're funded to work with National Governing Bodies.

And I think we could be really clever and work with other National Governing Bodies to help shape that as well. I think that would be an amazing move moving forward. You know, if we could work with the FA and have a cycling and football officer embedded into cerebral palsy sport, for example, or I think that could be an amazing way to share resource, share knowledge, and work together. So, I definitely think we can take the learnings and be cleverer moving forward.

But for me, they're the things I want to crack in the next couple of years.

The entry, because I think with our clubs and all the sort of the participation projects that we have, I'm quite confident that recreation and entry level participation cycling is covered with those amazing clubs and groups that we have and we need to start shaping the routes into competitive opportunities and a sort of a more secure, sustainable staffing structure, I think.

Because it can't just grow. It can't just always also be me. Like it needs, we need, and our few ambassadors that are doing an amazing job. I think we need to, yeah, to really start to embed it a bit better.

00:41:48 Dr Chris Brown

So you mentioned about other National Governing Bodies. So that leads me nicely on to another question I wanted to ask you.

It's quite difficult because every sport is different. Different sizes, different sources, different profile, et cetera, et cetera.

But how would you assess British cycling compared to other National Governing Bodies in your approach to disability?

What could other National Governing Bodies learn from British cycling? What could you learn from other National Governing Bodies? What's your perspective?

00:42:10 Lyndsey Hollands

It's a great question.

I think when I look at other National Governing Bodies, I'm always a little bit jealous of those organisations like ECBs and the FAs that have an entirely different structure in their sort of county associations. They have so much resource.

And then, a county cricket club can have a dedicated disability officer, a dedicated women and girls officer, and British Cycling isn't established in that way.

So that's when I sort of talk to my counterparts in those sports, I'm always jealous that they can direct work programmes out into their counties and they've got people on the ground to make a difference. I would say that would be one area that I think we can learn from.

But then I guess, maybe because we don't have that dedicated resource, perhaps we're better at integrating and that our staffing structures are working, across a number of different themes and are just working to embed inclusion as part of the work that they do. And I think that's possibly what other sports could learn from us.

Something I'm particularly proud of is definitely creating that sort of recognition and that kind of brand. And it's something I didn't really realise I was doing when we first started.

And like the Limitless brand is it's bright pink. Like it's there, it stands out. People love it. Like everyone wants a bright pink, big bobble hat and everybody wants an I am Limitless hoodie. And I just didn't realise how important that connection and that visibility was.

And it's an amazing feat of our creative team and our marketing team as well that have really, really pushed it. And I think maybe that's where the other NGBs can learn that actually disabled people deserve to have the same visibility, the same recognition.

And I would like to think that through the Limitless programme and through having a, you know, a bright pink banner that can't be missed, and a bright pink bike, and that we are creating that visibility and recognition that disabled people often only get 4, once every four years when the Paralympics rolls round.

So, hopefully that will be something that other NGBs could think, yeah, we could maybe do better at that.

00:44:35 Dr Chris Brown

Yeah, I agree.

Yes, it's really important, but if you want to really make change, you have to embed it as part of a culture, right? And make sure that disability is a fundamental aspect of everything that you do, right?

00:44:45 Dr Chris Brown

And so you've got your own kind of specific programme here. So, I look forward to other National Governing Bodies having bright pink emblems for their programmes going forward!

You've been very generous of your time, and I really appreciate it and it's been great chatting to you.

I think our final question, where do you hope to be by 2030 in terms of disability participation in cycling? What do you need to do to be able to get to that position?

00:45:07 Lyndsey Hollands

We've got our new framework for disability inclusive cycling. The framework has four very distinct pillars. The first is embedding disability inclusion into the business of cycling. So exactly how you said, it's going to be that sort of thread across all of our business. Everyone in their role has a responsibility for inclusion, to think inclusively.

I don't want a disabled person phoning up British Cycling in three, four years' time, or even in six weeks' time, and saying, oh, I want to enter into this event, or I'd like to go and watch this competition.

I want to go and see the Tour of Britain when it comes through. How do I do it? How can I do that as a disabled person? And I don't want people to think, oh, gosh, have we thought about that? I want it all to be embedded.

The second pillar of the framework is creating a lasting and sustainable legacy for Limitless. So I want Limitless to be business as usual and embedded into what we do. So that does come into sort of the first pillar as well.

Obviously, third, like I mentioned before, we are the National Governing Body of the sport. We do want to create that Paralympic pathway, that seamless pathway to the Paralympic Games. So, I want to see that the Limitless programme has created this amazing foundation where more riders are coming through our club and competition pathways, I guess, rather than that sort of traditional like route that sports have always done before and that sort of talent ID or finding riders from other sports or other disciplines. And that will still happen always, but I would love there to almost be the known riders that, you know, are in Limitless now that are going to be at Brisbane 32, you know. So yeah, that would be where I want us to be.

And then I think the last one is really working together with the other organisations out there. So, your Access Sports, your Wheels for All, and kind of being really collaborative and understanding where people have a responsibility and a role and who can drive it and where we have a role to support, because everyone's doing an amazing job and amazing work. 

And I think there's definitely power in partnerships. So, where can we be going to local authorities together to get really great opportunities to create that menu of options that we set.

So they're the big kind of four things for me, embedding inclusion, sustaining Limitless, making sure we have that foundation to create an inspiring pathway and working together to make it happen, because we'll do it way better if we can work with more people.

00:47:49 Dr Chris Brown

Of course, yeah.

And what potentially could be the hurdles you have to overcome to be able to achieve those four aspects? What is the potential threat to achieving that?

00:47:58 Lyndsey Hollands

I think, and it's something I've experienced already, is that sort of partnership piece.

I think people might think British Cycling is stepping on people's toes, that we were a challenge. So we've just announced that we're going to be a charitable foundation.

There's the British Cycling Federation, which is our sport, and then there's the British Cycling Foundation. People have said that that's a threat. And I don't want to be seen as a threat. I want it to be seen as an opportunity.

So, I think that is definitely a challenge, people seeing us as that and not necessarily wanting to work together. But I think we probably just all need to let our guard down a little bit and be like, well, what can we do really well and who's responsible for what?

And then where can one organisation lead and drive and where can one organisation support and understand that? And I think, yeah, that's how we'll get there.

00:48:48 Dr Chris Brown

And what about the embedding of the culture of disability within British cycling? What is a potential threat for that?

00:48:54 Lyndsey Hollands

A very traditional sports culture anyway, not just for disability inclusion, you know, like we, the acronym MAML is there for a reason, right? Like so many people will say.

00:49:06 Dr Chris Brown

And what is MAML for those who don't know it?

00:49:08 Lyndsey Hollands

Oh, sorry, middle-aged man in Lycra.

And people will say that cycling is stale, pale male.

And I think what is really exciting is that modernisation of the sport project that I mentioned earlier, and myself and my colleagues as strategic leads, strategic lead for disability inclusion, strategic lead for children, young people, strategic lead for women and girls and strategic physical activity and health.

I think that really, I guess, cements where British Cycling as an organisation wants to go. We want to change the sport and make it more inclusive.

We want to change it and make it more appealing for young people. We want to make it more appealing for women and girls. And that's what you have myself and my colleagues there doing. So that is, yeah, really, really exciting.

But you're right, it is that there's some ingrained traditions and values that we do need to work on. But I hope that structure will really start to help that.

And we've got we've got the framework for disability inclusion. There will be frameworks for all those other strategic lead areas as well.

So that's kind of, I guess, leading the way and how we're looking to break down those barriers across the spectrum.

00:50:21 Dr Chris Brown

OK, great. Thank you.

I really appreciate all the time you've spent there, Lindsey. I know you're a very busy woman. And yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with me today.

I think listeners will be learning a lot about how a specific sport has attempted to try and, you know, be more inclusive and increase participation in terms of the disability aspect. 

So, thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure speaking to you, Lindsey.

Always nice chatting to you. And I look forward to catching up with you soon.

00:50:43 Lyndsey Hollands

Yeah, thanks, Chris.