Mind the gap - a live recording about disability sport participation

In this episode, the UK's Get Active (2023) strategy for physical activity and sport participation is considered. An expert panel consider the details of the strategy and its implication for disabled people's sport participation and physical activity. Specifically, we consider the UK government's pledge to get 700,000 more disabled people active by 2030 as part of the Get Active strategy. 

This episode was filmed in front of a live audience at the University of Hertfordshire's Festival of Ideas, Friday 17th May 2024. 

This episode and other clips from the event are available on our YouTube channel, @DisabilitySportInfo. 

Thanks for listening to the Disability Sport Info show!

Transcript

Transcript for the episode, ‘Mind the gap - a live recording about disability sport participation’

[00:00:00] Dr Chris Brown: Hello, Listener! Thank you for tuning into another episode of the Disability Sport Info show. This recording was made in a live environment, so please bear that in mind when you’re listening. And it was recorded on the 17th of May [2024]. This episode is about the UK government strategy, Get Active, which was released last year [2023]. As I said, this was recorded on the 17th of May, so this was done before we found out about the [UK] General Election. But I hope you have a great time listening to the episode. 

But you can also watch the episode if you want to. So we have a YouTube channel called, @DisabilitySportInfo, which will have the recording, visually and audibly, that you can listen to and watch, if you’d like to. 

And also please do check out that YouTube channel because in the next few months we’re going to have more content appearing on that channel. So do check that out for more information and for more content. 

I hope you enjoy listening to the episode. Please feel free to get in touch with your thoughts and feedback about the episode. You can do so by emailing disabilitysportinfo@gmail.com. And I’d love to hear your thoughts. So, enjoy the episode. Thank you. 

[00:01:07] INTRO MUSIC AND TITLES

[00:01:36] Dr Chris Brown: I’m Dr. Chris Brown. I am the host of the Disability Support Info Show and I have an expert panel with me today to consider the Get Active strategy. We'll talk about that more soon.

But the expert panel are here to dissect that Get Active strategy in more detail to consider how we can get more disabled people physically active and participating in sport.

So my expert panel are the following. I have Josef Baines who is from London Sport. His interpreter is Bell and she will be providing the audio commentary on Josef's behalf. And we have Professor Hayley Fitzgerald from Leeds Beckett University. And we have Laura Horton from Disability Rights UK, and we have Dr. Emma Richardson from the University of Worcester. So thank you guys for joining. Really appreciate it. Looking forward to today. 

We will have a segment at the end of the show to consider some of your audience questions. There will be a QR code throughout on the other slide. 

To focus the discussion, I just want to go through a few things before we make a start. So I've got two graphs on the slide. I’m not going to give you death by PowerPoint, don't worry, but just to situate the discussion. So at the top we have about physical activity and sport participation. So this is how active people are. This is considering if people are doing 150 plus minutes a week. What we can see is that the top line is non-disabled people. They are doing more physical activity and sport compared to disabled people.

Disabled people are doing less sport and physical activity compared to non-disabled people. And there is a consistent gap. You can see on the slide that there is, it's been fairly stubborn throughout the years that we've got the data for. The slide at the, or the graph at the bottom is inactivity. So this is measuring less than 30 minutes of physical activity and sport per week.

And here we have the inverse. We have disabled people who are more inactive than non-disabled people. And again, it's a fairly stubborn trend that we've got. So about 40 percent of disabled people are inactive compared to about 20 percent for non-disabled people. So that gap, that consistent gap between disabled people and non-disabled people in terms of their sport and physical activity participation, it's what we're gonna focus on now.

So I'd like to turn to my first guest, Dr. Emma Richardson, just to provide a little bit of context as to why this gap exists in physical activity and support. So Emma, if you'd like to provide just a brief overview just so we can get a little bit of context before we discuss the strategy. 

[00:04:00] Dr Emma Richardson: I note you said brief there, Chris.

I'll do my very best. Thank you. Hi everybody. I’m Emma and, basically, my research focuses on how to make physical activity more inclusive of disabled communities. And first of all, I really want to say that, you know, it's not the kind of case that disabled people are not as interested or not as motivated to be active.

Exactly the same as the non-disabled population. Some people are like, absolutely not. The gym is my absolute worst nightmare. And other people are like, yeah, I really, really like it. Exactly the same for disabled people. Some people want to be active. Some people don't. The main difference is that there are so many other barriers that are in the way for disabled people than non-disabled people.

Now, I’m going to go pre 2020, you know, there's a lot of research that we did and we, and it's probably not going to come as a surprise that, you know, there was issues to access car parking spaces, changing rooms, equipment that doesn't have enough space to transfer from a wheelchair, you know, kind of disabled toilets are on the first floor and there's stairs, et cetera.

We knew what we were kind of dealing with then. There's been a big shift and we've got even more barriers now since COVID 19 has really left disabled people and their access kind of behind.  Economic crises have impacted disabled people more. So as well as all those barriers that we had before, we now have even more barriers with regards to, for example, the closing down of leisure centres, closing down of swimming pools, leisure centres being exponentially more expensive to use and to get memberships.

The transport infrastructure to get there is even more increased. And then we've also got, you know, even just thinking outside, we've got folk that really are having to think, do I charge my power chair, do I use my oxygen tank, or do I go swimming? You know, that's the reality, that it's a case of, do I live, or do I go to the leisure centre?

And so we're at this point now that, unfortunately, we've got even more barriers and even more issues with disability rights and inclusion than we had before. Which, for me, is why we've got this massive gap. And unless we do something quite quickly, it's going to get even, even bigger. 

[00:06:08] Dr Chris Brown: Well, thank you Emma.

That's a very thorough overview but brief. So yeah, you did really well. Yeah, I mean so I think hopefully you're getting the picture that it's a complex situation. It's not just snap your fingers, everything's okay. It is going to need a concerted effort to try and reduce that gap that it currently exists.

So that leads nicely onto the focus of our discussion today.

So we're focusing on the Get Active strategy. So for those who aren't aware of the Get Active strategy, this was released last year in August, so last year, 2023. Essentially, it is a continuation of Sporting Future, which was released in 2015. So that was a previous strategy from the government. It's keeping the same kind of focuses, but the main difference is the headline figures. They want to get three and a half million more people active by 2030. So that's the headline figure: three and a half million more people active. Within that, and the focus of our discussion today, is the objective to try and get 700 000 more disabled people active by 2030. Now, we will consider throughout this session whether that is possible and also some of the factors that are going to be relevant to whether this can be achieved or not.

I'd like to now turn to Professor Hayley Fitzgerald, if I may. Because when reading the strategy, to me, one of the strong focuses of the strategy of how we're going to get to that particular objective was to focus on children and young people.

So I'd like to get your perspectives, Hayley, about what the current provision is like for children and young people, and what is the strategy saying is going to happen to try and increase participation in that area? 

[00:07:28] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: Yeah, thanks, Chris. So the strategy is really premised on an action plan which is called the School Sport and Activity Action Plan.

So that's where the main work is being undertaken with regards to thinking about school and extracurricular activity for young people. That action plan has three key areas of work, if you like. One is around high quality physical education and sport. The second one is around extracurricular provision and competition.

And the third key area of work is around equal access to PE and sport. So those are the main areas of work that the action plan's doing. So, in order to address those main areas of work, there’s numerous programs and initiatives that have been established. So some of them you might be familiar with, including Inclusion 2024, the School Games, active transport to and from school.

There's a program around the use of facilities within schools. So they can be taken advantage of more full. And also some of you may be familiar with the primary PE premium, as well. 

So there's a whole body of programs and initiatives that have been developed. And when I think about those programs and how far we've got so far, I have to say, I’m either grumpy and frustrated, or I’m hopeful.

So, shall we do the grumpy and frustrated thing first? So when I’m grumpy and frustrated, actually when I look at the action plan document, what's evident to me and what I note is that where mention is made of young people with special educational needs and disabilities, it's at the latter end of the main document, which just frustrates me because this really speaks to the way in which, quite often, disabled people are positioned and placed within society more broadly.

So for me, I'd like to see issues around inclusion and different groups that need to be included, foregrounded within any kind of action planning like that. So I think that's really important. 

[00:10:10] Dr Chris Brown: Are you suggesting that there's like almost an afterthought then when we're considering disability?

[00:10:16] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: I wouldn't go as far as to say it's an afterthought. I think there needs to be more of an embeddedness of thinking about different groups and participation. And that's what I wasn't seeing in the action plan really.

I think another frustration, and this is broader and it's not necessarily explicitly to do with young people with disabilities, is the way in which competitive traditional sports continue to be prioritised.

That's a problem with PE more broadly, and there's lots of research that's indicating that as well. 

[00:10:54] Dr Chris Brown: And why is that an issue? 

[00:10:56] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: That's an issue because actually the curriculum talks about activity being broad and balanced. But by having very limited activity opportunities, that doesn't speak to me about being broad and balanced. There is some hope there though, but I'll come back to that later. 

And then I think the third frustration that I have, which some external organisations have as well is around the action planning just being for two years. So that doesn't mean we can really think of anything that's sustained or the longevity of the challenges at stake. So that would be another frustration. 

So that’s the grumpiness out of the way there. 

So when I've had a good sleep and I’m feeling a little bit more enlightened, the positive things and the hope that I take, and I’m slightly contradicting myself now, when I go into schools and I speak to practitioners, what I’m noticing is there is an increase in the diversity of activities that are offered now to some young people. And the action plan also speaks to that and give some really good illustrative examples. So let's do yoga. Let's do Tai Chi. Let's do cup stacking. Let's do circus skills. Let's do these diverse range of activities, including para and disability sports as well. And they need to be embedded within the curriculum. So there is some good, I’m going to call it pockets of good work going on, and that might be an individual member of staff, or it might be a PE department. It might be an academy, a collective of schools, et cetera. 

[00:12:38] Dr Chris Brown: And also, that's interesting because I was just thinking, is there a difference or a distinguishing feature that we could perhaps highlight here between special schools and mainstream providers, in terms of the quality of opportunities provided? 

[00:12:42] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: Gosh, that's a really big question. We could probably have a podcast just all about that. 

I don't think I’m quite going to answer the question, but what I’m going to get you to all think about is actually the special schools that I've worked in and supported, there's actually some absolutely brilliant practice going on, in terms of physical education and these are practitioners that are not necessarily physically education trained. The reason for that is those practitioners are very pupil-centred, and that's the essence of it. So circus skills, that definitely goes on in special schools. So I think mainstream schools could learn a lot actually from non-specialist deliverers of physical education and sport in special schools.

[00:13:40] Dr Chris Brown: Okay, so from what I’m getting from what you're discussing there, we need to be broader in our outlook, in terms of how we're considering sport and opportunities. It's not just the classic PE maybe we would have grown up with, or used to, you know, hockey, football, rugby, that kind of thing. A bit wider. And there are pockets of good practice, but perhaps it's not necessarily consistent throughout the country. 

[00:13:59] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: Yes. 

[00:14:00] Dr Chris Brown: Yeah. Okay. So when you were saying you were sometimes be a bit grumpy, sometimes a bit hopeful. Is there a particular part of it you err more to? Are you more hopeful or are more grumpy? Or does it depend on the coffee you’ve had?

[00:14:14] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: I think it depends. It depends on who I’m speaking to and, yes, I think it depends. Can I just give you one other option around the hope? 

[00:14:25] Dr Chris Brown: Always good for hope. 

[00:14:26] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: So one other area of hope, which again comes through in the action plan, but also what I’m seeing when I go into schools, is the recognition of student voice now. And I think physical education and sport is behind other areas that have embraced that idea. We need to engage with young people, ask them how they're doing, how they're experiencing activities, and support them in a way where they can help to co-construct a different kind of physical education, either within or beyond the curriculum as well.

So I think the notion of student voice is something within the action plan and something that I’m seeing. And again, that practice is quite pocketed as well. 

[00:15:09] Dr Chris Brown: And just one final question before we move on to the next section, if I may. Is there a distinction between primary school sport and opportunities for that kind of age group versus secondary?

[00:15:20] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: Yes. 

[00:15:21] Dr Chris Brown: And what is the difference? 

[00:15:23] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: I mean, it's interesting that you're saying school sport there. I think we need to think of physical education as something that's broader than that. Again, I would suggest that because primary educators are not always trained in physical education and are pupil-centred, young people get a different kind of experience. However, with outsourcing where external companies come in now and might support physical education and extracurricular opportunities, there's a challenge there because some individuals and organisations that are doing that delivery, are actually replicating that traditional model of physical education.

And that's another podcast as well, Chris, for you! 

[00:16:08] Dr Chris Brown: So we've got at least two more to come. Committed on recordings. That's good. All right. Thank you ever so much, Hayley. I think we'll move on to the next section if that's okay. Obviously, like you said, we could easily carry on talking about this topic, but let's focus on the wider social and structural issues that perhaps are at play, because, you know, obviously that's going to be a key determining factor as to whether we are indeed successful at getting the 700,000 target. 

So I’d like to turn to Laura now if that's okay. So within the strategy it specifically says, and I’m going to quote, so I’m just going to look at my notes here, “there is a desire to tackle structural disparities that exist across society”. How would you mark the government's current progress on that, Laura?

[00:16:50] Ms Laura Horton: I'll try and be positive, to an extent. However, I think at DRUK, we believe that by following the social model of disability, it's clear to us that access to choice of affordable, accessible, safe, and fun activities is a rights-based issue. And I've not seen any evidence that that's the case from anything that's come out from any of the strategies. As disabled people, we lose out and are not able to be active as non-disabled people. This is because of a wide range of barriers outside of our control, which Emma's alluded many to. But actually, it's often including the design of our social structures, that actually put us at even more disadvantage. So that gap that we've already spoken about is just increasing and increasing. 

But, for us, being active in a way that's suits us is a fun, it's not a luxury. It should be an absolute right and it should be something that's afforded to all of us. And it's so often seen as a disabled person that if I want to be physically active, it's a nice to activity. It's an afterthought. Like you said, it's not embedded. 

So, when people are making decisions around if I can use my benefits on being physically active, it's like, well, I think you should be doing like your domiciliary care or other things. And so it's not seen as an absolute right. 

On average, we've lost around £1,200 each year because of the changes that we've seen currently going on in government. And non-disabled, that's equivalent to about 300. So again, that massive disparity. So, actually being able to get to activities, to be able to take part is really important. You know, and I think you mentioned, Emma, that when we're making decisions about can I put my heating on, can I go out and have food, or can I still maintain my wellbeing, and actually the things that I want to do, we're having to make them choices on a more regular basis.

So, regrettably, a lot of the other reforms and a lot of the things that we're seeing, just kind of makes physical activity even less of a realism for us as disabled people. And then not to bring on the fear of having our benefits stopped. 

[00:19:04] Dr Chris Brown: Yeah, that's an interesting one because I know you guys are doing some research about the activity trap or, you know, being a bit fearful of if you're seen to be active, you know, someone might suggest that you are not eligible for your benefits. And therefore there is that paradox, really. You want to get people to be active but actually at the same time there's potential to try and get you off the benefit system.  

And so would you be able to speak a little bit more about what that actually means in practice? You know how many people are actually being put off by the idea of potential, you know, being accused of benefit cheats or anything like that, would you be able to talk about that at all? 

[00:19:40] Ms Laura Horton: I mean, we're currently doing the research at the minute, so I can't give you the definite figures. But this was always kind of like an elephant in the room, I guess.

It was a conversation that we were having all the time and people were telling us that they had this fear. What we didn't know was that was it a perceptional fear or a reality? Already from our research, it's actually very apparent. It's a reality. And people are having their benefits stopped because they've had decisions turned down because they've said, “Oh, I will cycle to...” And it's like, “ah, okay, you can meet that, but you don't meet that criteria”. So that's already coming out. And so what needs to happen is a very honest conversation with, , assessors of PIP [Personal Independence Payment] and things like that actually what to enable me being physically active, actually enables me to continue to maintain my wellbeing.

And it's not actually going to mean that all of a sudden, I can, you know, walk 5000 steps or whatever else. Yeah, sadly, always perception is just as important. We have to challenge that as well. But actually, you know, it's a reality. 

[00:20:51] Dr Chris Brown: And also at the moment, we've currently got the government trying to tighten up the welfare system. At least that's how they package it, you know. We've got, I think it was the other day, when Rishi Sunak was saying “we've got a sick note culture”, and so presumably that is counterproductive to what we're trying to do about getting people who maybe have more complex requirements, more access needs, to be active, because of what you've been saying?

[00:21:14] Ms Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And unfortunately, time and time again, what we see is that there is this massive disparity about what one government department's doing versus another. And I think, Hayley, you mentioned it perfectly, because we do not get the people who actually are going to be affected in any of these decisions involved in these conversations, you know. It's never, ever considered that, actually, so, you know, we're never asked as our opinion to go, well, what is it that enables you to maintain a degree of consistency in your life? So, yeah, sadly, we just, after decision after decision, it's having more and more impact on disabled people being physically active.

[00:20:49] Dr Chris Brown: Okay, thank you so much, Laura. I mean, we've got to move on because of time. I could easily, again, talk for a long time with you here, but I'd like to now turn to Josef, if that's okay. 

So, as I said earlier, Josef's from London Sport, which is an Active Partnership. So, for those who aren't aware, Active Partnerships are county-based. So, essentially, their role is to try and facilitate physical activity and sport at a local level. 

And within the strategy, there was an emphasis on trying to use Local Authorities and Active Partnerships to try and increase physical activity. Specifically, there was a suggestion that, of the local place based investment from Sport England, 75 percent of it will be targeted at places with the most requirements: physical activity and sport participation rates being lowest or low social outcomes.

So, Josef, I'd like to turn to you, and now, how would you assess the focus on Local Authorities and Active Partnerships in terms of what the strategy is saying, in terms of being able to get to the 700,000 target?

[00:22:55] Mr Josef Baines: Okay. So, well, I can give you a bit of context before I sort of share my thoughts with you. The strategy itself is really ambitious, I feel, but also, we only have, it's only like six years to achieve that target. That's really challenging for a lot of organisations. And obviously I feel as though the strategy, I don't know, that figure of 700,000, it feels as though it's been plucked out of thin air.

So were there any proper discussions there with the disability organisations and other various expertise? And obviously looking at resources as well. So if you look at the Active Lives results, if you look at the year 2015 to now, 2023 only, there's only 4.2 percent increase, for disabled people, in terms of their participation. So in that time frame, you'd expect there to be a lot more. And I don't see how we'd be able to achieve that figure. 

So it raises a lot of questions in terms of, like, the strategy. Who are we targeting exactly? Who are the audience? And, secondly, who sets the baseline? What are we measuring against? And for what year? Is that 2015? 2020? 

But also, the strategy as well ties into the monitoring and the evaluation. So the problem there is the Active Lives Survey. It has probably around 170,000 participants included in that survey, but a very small number of disabled people. So how do we kind of monitor that progress at a local level? Because it's not really a large enough sample. So there's quite a lot of questions there that need to be answered. 

And there's conversations to be had. Obviously, that needs to happen with disability organisations, like Disability Sports Coaching, Metro Blind Sports, and also London Marathon events, so all those kind of things.

So, I just don't know how that kind of came about, really. So, if we're moving on to the role of Local Authorities and Active Partnerships. Yes, we have an important role because we, obviously, distribute funds, and we work with partnerships, obviously, we have in Local Authorities, and just to identify what's needed in terms of resources.

So strategy organisations obviously only work with corporate, so we don't actually deliver those activities. What we do is that we rely on charities, other sports organisations who will then go and deliver those on behalf of the Active Partnerships. So if you were to ask disability charities, sports and charities to deliver, it is a really big ask because most of us obviously are really struggling with funding, just so that they can deliver those.

It just means that we can't always rely on the goodwill of charities just to meet and achieve that target of 700,000. So it doesn't seem to be very fair. So from a strategic viewpoint, I think it's probably a bit too much. And just throwing in what's already been mentioned with benefits and it's kind of like becomes a trap.

And they'd say a lot of disabled people can be quite reluctant because they don't want to be, because obviously there's the risk of benefits being taken away or reduced. So there's all that going on and all that trying to get through those kind of issues. So the 700,000 target is a very difficult target to reach in that six year time frame.

[00:26:32] Dr Chris Brown: Yeah. Some really excellent points. Thank you, Josef. Yeah, I'd just like to comment on what you said about the 700,000 target and where that came from. I mean, for me, when I was looking at the data. If you take the current physical activity rate for disabled people, so that particular population figure, if you try to get 700,000 more that's about a nine percent increase, roughly. Now, that suggests we're doubling what we've done over how many years like you just said. Is that realistic?

I'll leave the open question for you guys. By the shaking of the head, I’m presuming no. 

[00:27:06] Mr Josef Baines: Yeah, I mean, also just to throw in as well, when we go back to like targeting audience, you know, who are they? Are we talking about people with long-term health conditions? Or are we talking about people that have a disability that may be just one impairment, if you want to use that word, like myself, or are there multiple?

We just need some more resource support there. And obviously that would require more funding just to support that. So who would it be? Which would it be? There's no kind of mention of that in this strategy. 

[00:26:45] Dr Chris Brown: Okay, again, yeah, I mean it's just about trying to get the detail, isn't it, behind the suggestions of what's going to happen. I'd love to carry on talking about this, but we're a bit tight for time. But all I'd say is, I think when we're talking with Laura just a minute ago about what the government are doing, you know, we've also got public sector funding being squeezed at the moment. Some Local Authorities are bankrupt or going into a very difficult situation. So, if we're relying on that local level, you know, we've got to be also mindful of the fact that it's probably gonna be a patchwork throughout the country.

So Emma, I just like to turn to you, if that's okay, for the last part of this section. So we're gonna hopefully try and get some more people active. Physical activity, but also could be sport. So potentially some people are going to be going to sports clubs or they might be using their local fitness providers. So I just like you to provide some brief comments about whether they're able to support policy, and also the inclusivity of those outlets?

[00:28:37] Dr Emma Richardson: You only use brief with me, I have noticed this. Those providers have got a big difficult job to do because basically the kind of the delivery of this and the success of it has almost been put on their shoulders, you know. They have to do the real kind of work for it and kind of think about it.

I can think of two ways directly and indirectly that that folk can hopefully help. And, you know, Laura mentioned that the social model: we love the social model. I’m very much kind of driven by the social relational model. So absolutely, we have those access to barriers and those physical, structural, but there's also some massive, massive kind of improvements or damages that we can do through our interactions with people, through how we treat them, how we talk to them, and that can have a big impact on wellbeing.

So I think that if we're thinking about sports clubs or leisure centres, from a policy kind of perspective, if people are in that position that they can do something about that. Then, basically, you know, I’m not wanting to steal Laura's kind of, you know, thing, but you know, the disability rights thing, “nothing about us without us”, you know, get those disabled people as the expert panel, the real expert panel, what can we do, how can we do this?

What ideas about, I don't know, fundraising or grants or what can you do to kind of try to, like, reduce some of those barriers regarding transport, regarding access, regarding, you know, it's mainly unfortunately coming down to money, with regards to folk that are directly working with disabled people. That's where lot of the research that we've done has found that it's almost like that first interaction.

There's a fear, there's a fear of saying something wrong, there's a fear of, you know, kind of like doing something wrong. , and the kind of research that we've done basically says once we realise that, you know, people are people, and that a disabled person is at your club or at your leisure centre because they want to be there, you know, that's where magic can happen.

And so, basically, you've got an amazing knowledge about what they can do, what they can't do, what they want to do, what they're hoping to do, and you've got that technical knowhow about, perhaps, how to get to it. And combining that, you can work together and find some really fantastic, creative ways to get there.

And so, yeah, I’m going to say something immensely cheesy that my students all roll their eyes about, and it's that when you can't change the world, change the world for one person. And so focus on the person, you know, we talk about pockets of good practice that Hayley said and those, you know, person-centred approaches, you know, just focus on the person.

I know that when I've been working with, you know, I work with lots of different kind of disabilities and stuff. The things that I put in my bag are always an Allen key thing or like a little kind of Swiss army knife and duct tape. It's amazing what you can do with duct tape to fix wheelchairs to kind of like, and make sure prosthetics fit right to fix whole, like, you know, bag and balls and stuff like that.

And it's that case of, you know, people are really afraid to fail. But when you're working with somebody that has an impairment, you know, and every impairment is different. Somebody could have the same level of spinal cord injury; their experience is immensely different. And what they want to do is immensely different.

And so, you know, kind of work with them. And you only really fail when you're working with disabled people in a gym or in swimming or in a coach or a club if you don't try. And you're gonna fail loads of times, and most of the times those are when you have the proper belly laughs that, you know, kind of you're falling all over the place or you've managed to stick yourself to their tyre. I did that. But it's that sort of thing of, you know, when there's stuff around or external is uncontrollable and makes you grumpy, you know, sort of thing. You can be the hope that somebody has by working with them, by being their ally, being their friends, and working together to get to where they want to be.

Whether that is dancing about in the kitchen to BBC Radio 2 on a Sunday, that they can do that and, you know, we want it to be fun. Or if they want to do something more organised and more structured like sports. You know, whatever they want to do, work with them to get there. 

[00:32:45] Dr Chris Brown: I think it's a really important message, you know, not trying to impose a set of practices because you think that's going to work across lots of different areas and lots of different contexts.

[00:32:52] Dr Emma Richardson: It won’t

[00:32:53] Dr Chris Brown: Exactly. 

[00:32:53] Dr Emma Richardson: I tried. 

[00:32:56] Dr Chris Brown: And if you've learned anything today, it's about the use of duct tape. 

[00:32:58] Dr Emma Richardson: Yes. 

00:32:59] Dr Chris Brown: So we've all got at least one thing we can take away from today. 

[00:33:01] Dr Emma Richardson: I do not have stocks or anything in duct tape. Just saying that.

[00:33:05] Dr Chris Brown: And other radio stations are available as well, I hasten to add. 

Okay, we're a bit tight for time. So I’m just going to uh go straight to the last bit and within that, perhaps, my panel might be able to consider the workforce and some of the coaching, perhaps, in their answers.

I think I’ll go to Laura first, if that's okay. So, we've been discussing whether it's possible and also how we get to the 700, 000 more disabled people active. So now it's time to put our money where our mouths are, okay. Can we do it? 

And for your answer, because, you know, we're in an academic environment, I would like some supporting evidence, please, to support your particular answer. So, yes or no, with all the caveats that come with that, can we actually meet this target?

And why do you hold that opinion? So, Laura, I'd like to go to you first, if that's okay? 

[00:33:51] Ms Laura Horton: I said I was going to be positive, but it's a no. 

[00:33:53] Dr Chris Brown: Okay, good. Good start. 

[00:33:55] Ms Laura Horton: Yeah, no, sadly, I think, for me, what the strategy lacks is evidence that disabled people were actually consulted in that sort of way, you know. And the silo mentality that this strategy seems to have means it's going to fail, because actually they have no consideration of what DWP are trying to achieve, or the other kind of departments. And so, the conversation you alluded to earlier around Local Authorities having their budgets cut. Well, actually, so some of the things that it suggested it would do, that's not achievable. And then, if you go into health and whatever, there's loads of different things. 

But the problem is, again, it's some individuals, and I’m sure it had the best intention, have plucked this figure out of the air, as Josef said, and have gone, this is what we're going to do. But without any thought of how, why, or even if it's what disabled people want, lack. So, for me, no, sadly.

[00:34:51] Dr Chris Brown: Okay, thank you. And you provided some supporting evidence, so that's fine. Good. 

All right. Let's move on to one of our other panellists. Hayley, you’ve not talked for a while, so let's go to you. So what do you think, in terms of the 700,000 target? 

[00:35:02] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: Yeah, I actually don't care if it's a yes or no.

[00:35:07] Dr Chris Brown: There’s always one dissenting voice, isn't there!?

[00:35:08] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: Because, for me, I think the key is understanding those people that are active, what the realities of their experiences are like. 

[00:35:18] Dr Chris Brown: That's a good point. 

[00:35:18] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: So, for example, if the target is two hours of physical education, within schools, if those targets are met, what does that really tell us? So, what's the backstory behind the time targets or the numbers? That's what I want to know. 

So establishing what people are thinking and feeling, and how they're experiencing activity. And, of course, the challenge would also be to try to think through those people that aren't active, and better understand, and I think all our panellists have all talked about that today, why they're not active as well. 

[00:35:58] Dr Chris Brown: Yeah, no, I think it's a really important point.

I mean, some of the criticisms of the 2012 legacy was that perhaps there was a tick box culture or focused too much on numbers and, actually, why are people either participating or not participating? That's also equally important. So I think that's a really good point that you raised there.

Josef, I'd like to come to you now, if that's okay. So, from a local perspective and Active Partnership perspective, what's your thoughts on the 700,000 target? 

[00:36:25] Mr Josef Baines: So, my direct answer would be it won't be possible to achieve, the 700,000 target by the year 2030, purely because all the things that we've talked about. And obviously it ties in again with funding and the position that we're in at the moment.

So in that short timeframe, that short timescale, we just don't have the resources available to kind of really set that and get that established. So, various charity sports organisations delivering partnerships wouldn't have enough power to really move that forward to get that figure achieved.

So there's quite a lot of gaps as well that links in obviously to education, the education of like perhaps are people aware of what's actually out there? Maybe parents, they don't know what activities are available, sort of locally, maybe because the information hasn't been sort of sent out. All those kind of things that disabled people themselves wouldn't know either.

Because obviously the government who set up the strategy, they don't know what needs are of disabled organisations. So when it comes with funding as well, it’s just like a very powerless thing to be able to move on. We can't really rely on charities alone.

So we do try and look for other kinds of like funding streams. And so obviously, you know, for that target to be met. But also currently the cost of living, you know, that's just to throw something else in and it just makes it a lot harder, really. 

I mean, it is quite possible that we would have a new government soon. It could quite possibly, potentially be a labour government. So that strategy could then just be thrown away and then we'll start again. So there's just so much going on at the moment, and it's very, very unsettling at the moment. So I don't feel confident that we'll be on track to achieve that target.

[00:38:19] Dr Chris Brown: Okay. Yeah. Thank you. That's some really good points. I think the timing of the strategy and the release of it, I think is also important to note. You know, it came out last year. We’re in the potential dying embers of a Conservative government. If I was being cynical, which of course I never am, but if I was, just for this particular occasion, it's easy to have a target if you don't think you're gonna have to deliver it, right? You can have a nice headline figure, which you can get some good headlines about, but, ultimately, you're not the ones that have to worry about delivering it. But that is if I was being cynical, which of course I am not. 

So, yeah, I'd like to go to Emma now, if that's okay. So, we don't have a very positive outlook at the moment, so I've obviously saved the most positive person to last.

[00:38:58] Dr Emma Richardson: That’s me!

[00:39:00] Dr Chris Brown: So what's your thoughts about the 700,000 target and whether it can be met? 

[00:39:04] Dr Emma Richardson: Nope, it's not happening. 

[00:39:05] Dr Chris Brown: Okay, good, good. We've got a clean house. 

[00:39:07] Dr Emma Richardson: Yeah, full house. Yeah, exactly what we're kind of saying, you know. What Josef said, you know, where's the 700,000 coming from?

What is a disability? Even what is physical activity? What are they counting that as? And yeah, again, it's just one of these kind of, you know, picked from thin air that I couldn't have said it better myself. And the infrastructure, the issues, the barriers that create that gap are still there, you know. 

And, you know, exactly as Laura said as well, it's a bit like there hasn't been any consultation with disabled people. And if they are not at the foundation and the centre of what you're going to do, why you're going to do it, how you're going to deliver it, how you're going to measure it. They need to be in every single step and stage for any policy to actually be in any way meaningful, sustainable and actually have that kind of active change. And we just don't see that if you don't, you know, I think it's evident that they don't really know what the main issues are.

If you don't know what the main issue, the real issues are, then you're not going to be able to find solutions to fix those issues. I just don't see this in this policy, unfortunately. But I do think there are magical, wonderful people out there that, yeah, are doing fantastic stuff and will keep doing great things, whatever government we end up in.

I’m trying to be as unpolitical as possible. 

[00:40:26] Dr Chris Brown: Well, I appreciate that attempt. Thank you. 

And, yeah, thank you to my panellists there for your answers. I mean, obviously this is just our perspective. It's not saying that it's definitely not going to happen. Lots of things could happen. 

Also, the point I think Josef mentioned, you know, there can be events that happen that we're not foreseeing. Obviously, no one expected COVID to happen. That obviously impacted participation. The cost of living crisis: it's a little bit of both, you know. Some of it was self-inflicted, you know, 49 days, that's all I'll say. And then also the energy crisis, of course. So there are also external events that can have an impact too. Maybe for the positive but also potentially for the negative 

Okay, in terms of questions for the panel, that is it. 

So I’m now going to turn to the audience questions So I’m now going to look at my phone. Not just, you know, scrolling around randomly; I am looking at the questions that you've got. So I think we probably have time for a few. 

So the first question that I’ve got here I’m going to pitch to the panel is, to what extent can the Paralympics influence disabled people's sport and physical activity participation? 

This is kind of my area. So, if you don't mind, I might actually just answer it myself. Which is a host's privilege. 

So I think it has potential, of course, for some people, but as a nationwide strategy, you're probably on a hiding to nothing if you're just hoping an elite sport event over two weeks is going to shift, you know, people's behaviour. If you're trying to get inactive people to be more active, is an elite sport event, which they may not even be aware of or be interested in, going to unlock some of the barriers that people face? Might for some, might not for others. I think it is just one component of a wider set of initiatives that you need to try and increase participation. And we've talked about some of the other barriers and all the other factors that are important. So I think to answer that question, it may do. But it's unlikely to do it in the round, really.

[00:42:24] Ms Laura Horton: Can I just quickly add one second on that? 

[00:42:26] Dr Chris Brown: Go for it. 

[00:42:27] Ms Laura Horton: Just in terms of, I think it's an opportunity to have a spotlight on disability and physical activity. And I think everybody involved in that movement, involved in that work, has an opportunity to raise some of the things that we've mentioned today. And that's where we could make some change. 

[00:42:42] Dr Chris Brown: Yeah, no, that's a really good point.  

[00:42:44] Mr Josef Baines: Just wanted to add to that comment that Laura's just made. 

Sport England and the research that we've done last year, used the national representative poll, which mentioned disabled people's views and just to get that in a positive light. So that was really good to see. 

And that should be something that we encourage just to have that visibility, just to make disabled people feel like, “wow, yes, you know, I feel energized by that”, but, you know, obviously there are gaps in resources as we've identified, obviously, which stops disabled people from participating. But it does influence. It definitely does. 

[00:43:23] Dr Chris Brown: Yeah, no, that's a really good point, definitely. 

So I’m just looking at some of the questions that we've got. I think just with time we could probably do one more. And if you've not had your question answered, please do catch me at the end and I’m happy to have a chat with you. Or maybe you can email me or we can have a chat now, so apologies for that. 

So this one is a good one to end, I think. Are there any good models of inclusive activity in other countries that you know of? 

So I'll put that out to anyone in the panel who wants to pitch in. Hayley, you want to go? 

[00:43:54] Professor Hayley Fitzgerald: Can I say something? I don't think we need to necessarily look to other countries.

A model of good practice that I think perhaps needs to be extended is around the idea of mixed ability activity. So let's imagine we have a group that are engaging in some activity, and the group that's engaging is almost a microcosm of what society is. So lots and lots of different kinds of people. That happens in mixed ability sports.

So an organization called IMAS, which is the International Mixed Ability Movement, provides all sorts of programmes where you get lots of different people that participate. And those people are quite happy to participate together with all kinds of people with different kinds of abilities. 

So, a plug for an organisation that I’m involved in, which is called Unorthobox, which is non-contact boxing. And in our sessions, we have visually impaired people. We have people that are using electric wheelchairs. We have families that come in. We have really old people, really young people. We have people with learning disabilities. We have everybody that you could imagine in that room. And do you know what? They engage, and it's a really positive experience. So, moving to a mixed ability model in sports and activity is key for me. 

[00:45:16] Dr Chris Brown: Okay, great. Thank you. One last line from anyone if they want to add. 

[00:45:20] Dr Emma Richardson: I was living in Alabama for a while and it was a phenomenal place. Basically, it was a gym or leisure centre that was for anyone that had an impairment. Now this included quadriplegia to arthritis, sort of thing. And it was amazing because it was built with that kind of different needs in mind, sort of thing. And, you know, I always, like, I still, if I see a ramp or stairs, I’m taking the ramp. It's a bit like putting something in place to be more accessible for somebody else doesn't mean that you exclude others, you know, sort of thing. To include everybody means that, you know, like that nothing is taken away. Only things are added. So again, it's that sort of thing of it's not an afterthought. It's a forethought. 

[00:46:03] Dr Chris Brown: That’s interesting because, in my current situation, I have two young kids that we've used the ramp for our buggy.

[00:46:08] Dr Emma Richardson: Yeah. I still do. I’m 34. It's great. 

[00:46:10] Dr Chris Brown: Yeah, so you're getting obviously a more inclusive environment helps many more people than maybe just your initial target, you know, you're going to have a wider.

[00:46:17] Dr Emma Richardson: And it's fun. 

[00:46:18] Dr Chris Brown: And it's fun. Exactly. All right. 

Well, we're out of time. So what I’d like to do now is to say thank you ever so much to the panel. I think it's been a fantastic show, I’ve really enjoyed it. Our first live recording and, if we have any demand, we might have another one. But, yeah, I really like to thank the panel. So if you can join me now in just giving a round of applause, I really appreciate it.

Thank you very much. But most importantly, I’d like to thank you, the audience, for coming to see our live event. Like I said, it was our first time doing a live recording. It was really fun and some really good insight and discussion from our panellists. And thank you for those who submitted a question. Like I said, if you haven't had your question answered, catch me at the end. We can have a little chat. But, yeah, thank you ever so much for coming. I'd like to give you a round of applause as well.

[00:47:03] Dr Emma Richardson: There's a room of a hundred people for those watching online. 

[00:47:05] Dr Chris Brown: Exactly. 

Just a final bit to say so , this. 

[00:47:12] Mr Josef Baines: And a thank you to Chris. 

[00:47:13] Dr Emma Richardson: Yes.

[00:47:14] Dr Chris Brown: Oh, thank you, thank you, that's very kind, thank you.

So, this is going to be, technology permitting, available as a visual and audio podcast. So, technology permitting, if you want to relive our conversations, and why wouldn't you, we've got a weekend coming up:

why wouldn't you want to do that? You can. And you can catch it on all good podcasting platforms. Just search for, “Disability Sport Info”. And you can also catch it on the YouTube channel that we've just created called @DisabilitySportInfo. And on that YouTube channel, there's going to be this recording, fingers crossed, and also much more content in the months to come. So do check that out.

So just to end, I am Dr. Chris brown. I’m the host of Disability Sport Info. Thank you ever so much for coming. Stay tuned for another episode. Until then, goodbye.

ENDS